Footnote † from STV: Switch To STV

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Footnote to PitAK: STV noburn.info/id/video/0my7gL57m6eynXo.html
Runtime: 3:40

Kommentarer

Euan Stokes
Euan Stokes - 2 dager siden
You suggested that representatives should be between 5 and 9 for ranges but why do no countries use boundaries that large? In Ireland it only goes up to 5, why is this?
Ton Bich Hien
Ton Bich Hien - Måned siden
The needless word simulteneously bare because carnation prospectively gather before a guttural H habitual watchmaker. solid, dizzy laugh
Bala314
Bala314 - 2 måneder siden
28:57
Look in the bottom right corner
Animation glitch anyone?
Biscuit
Biscuit - 2 måneder siden
What if you were to decide to just give less representatives to the big city (Let's say 5) and then just give them extra voting power in the parliament to make up for that to simplify elections? Am I missing something here or would this work?
Tasman Millen
Tasman Millen - 4 måneder siden
Haha 40 politicians running for 18 seats. Yeah right. For Vancouver mayor (1 seat), we had 23 people running! Multiply that out and you have 414 people running for just 18 seats. Yeah. That’s a lot.
Razid
Razid - 4 måneder siden
Here's a crazy and complicated voting system for you: The percentage of votes results in the percentage of seats in the parlament. Done.
James Quaine
James Quaine - 5 måneder siden
In Ireland it's 3, 4 or 5 seat constituencies for national elections and it seems proportional
huvarda
huvarda - 5 måneder siden
And then I kid you not he pulls out a comically large sparsely populated range with 5 representatives, funniest thing I’ve ever seen. 2:38
Gurry l.
Gurry l. - 5 måneder siden
В одну банку?
Inkyminkyzizwoz
Inkyminkyzizwoz - 6 måneder siden
This is a good point to note for all the people that keep calling for STV or PR in the UK. Constituencies in more sparsely populated areas would either cover massive areas (thus making them harder to get round) or only have one or two MPs (thus effectively defeating the object of the system in the first place)
Hugh Gordon
Hugh Gordon - 7 måneder siden
Been going through the stv postings,.. daft question, ... is there a reverse voting system any where, ? Where you can provide a negative vote??
cstrutherskgs
cstrutherskgs - 7 måneder siden
Why is 3 “gerrymanderable?” Anyone have a video on why, or a written explanation? Any help would be very appreciated thanks.
Alexandre J. W. Klaus
Alexandre J. W. Klaus - 8 måneder siden
2:40 Reminds me of all territories (administrative region like a province or state) in Canada who have ONE representative each, nunavut has one for !
hking5
hking5 - 8 måneder siden
"3 seats is very gerrymandible"
Looks at Ireland's 3 to 5 seat constituencies.
Note: Ireland uses STV for those who don't know.
Elijah Ford
Elijah Ford - 8 måneder siden
The more politicians there are, the better. More representatives means power is more divided, giving each individual member of government less power over the people as a result.
Austin Feng
Austin Feng - 11 måneder siden
Do STV under 2 party system such as US since now with 5 reps per range the Democrats and Republicans try to run exactly 3-5 people in each district and everybody either votes for all 5 Dems in some order or all 5 Republicans and what happens?
Robert Jarman
Robert Jarman - 11 måneder siden
See Malta.
FGPT Flat_top_king12
FGPT Flat_top_king12 - 11 måneder siden
69 dislikes nice
quadrplax
quadrplax - År siden
Is there a reason the ranges always have an odd number of representatives?
Jordan Liu
Jordan Liu - År siden
CGP Grey: teaching governments how to run countries since 2014
Orden Hartley
Orden Hartley - År siden
Ha imagine saying you’ve got Stv’s
MikeyGeess
MikeyGeess - 8 måneder siden
Highly infections towards real democracies! *Looks at the USA* yep, real democracies...
Nick Pallas Misailidis
Investing in good software and have the computer run the algorithm after it has counted all votes might be the way to go.
Just have humans draw the boundaries, and everyone inserts their own unique code in the machine you install in the booth, instead of using ballots and paper and apes counting those up.
A snek Boi
A snek Boi - År siden
But what if a candidates wins enough votes for two or more seats will the party get two or more representatives
Quintinohthree
Quintinohthree - År siden
If one candidate wins enough votes for two or more seats, the remainder of their votes are returned to the voters and transferred to their voters' second choices, which may in fact be of another party entirely.
Unnamed RedShirt
Unnamed RedShirt - År siden
For US politics, I'm wondering if we could just combine all districts in a state and just use STV for the entire state? I think this would still be constitutional, and I don't see any logical problems with it. Anyone?
bender bandit
bender bandit - 6 måneder siden
That's the case for the Australian Senate, and we have larger states, although smaller population. 12 reps with half voted on each election.
Robert Jarman
Robert Jarman - År siden
Legal, but in many states, not very useful. 5 member districts, ranging between about 4 to 7, being the norm means that the representatives are relatively local, elections are simpler, and still results are quire proportional.
Sägewerk
Sägewerk - År siden
so you want a system with local representatives that also represents how the persons voted so that not the person that lost the popular vote can win, have you ever looked how germans vote for parlament, the Bundestag?
Sazaberu
Sazaberu - År siden
another thing depending on how often you have elections, in order for it to be the most fair you would have to take a census at sometime before each election probably the mid point and that suuuuuuucks to manage
James Humphreys
James Humphreys - 2 år siden
On the STV Wikipedia, it does say, you could have a single winner seat.
Robert Jarman
Robert Jarman - År siden
That's true, but it should be very rare to have cases like that, like maybe Alaska for the US case or Nunavut for Canada.
MrPhazzy
MrPhazzy - 2 år siden
Canada would be a strange case for STV. First, you most likely wouldn't be able to create ridings that cover multiple provinces, as each province is constitutionally required to have a certain number of seats in the House of Commons. Second, is the population distribution in Canada. With how sparsely populated certain parts of Canada is, you'd inevitably have to have some single member districts.
Let's take, for example, the province of Manitoba. Right now, Manitoba has 14 seats in the House of Commons. Let's assume that in a switch to STV, the seat distribution would remain the same. As it stands, the 14 seats for Manitoba are distributed as such:
There are 8 seats given to the area around the capital city of Winnipeg.
There are 5 seats given to rural southern Manitoba.
There is 1 seat given to northern Manitoba. And this one seat makes up well over half the land area of the province.
Now when it comes to distributing these seats out into STV, what would probably happen is that the 8 Winnipeg seats would just become one big 8-member Winnipeg seat. The 5 southern Manitoba seats would just become one big 5-member southern Manitoba seat. With the Churchill seat, you're stuck. There's really nothing you can do except have it be a single-member district. You could in theory just roll it into the southern Manitoba seat, but that flies in the face of the idea of local representation. The issues of northern Manitoba and southern Manitoba are completely different. The south is largely white rural farmers, and usually vote more Conservative. The north has the highest proportion of Indigenous Canadians of any seat in the country, and is home to many Indigenous reserves, and tends to vote NDP or Liberal. The interests of the north and south are very different, so it wouldn't be fair to roll the north into the southern seat.
And then there's the territories. All three territories combined have about the same population as a single riding in the rest of the country. Each territory would have to remain a single-member district. You can't roll the territories up into one big "Territories" riding. Partially for constitutional reasons, but also due to the idea of local representation. Yukon is majority white, Northwest Territories is largely First Nations, and Nunavut is largely Inuit. These are three different places with different cultures, you can't roll them up into one seat.
If STV were to happen in Canada, it would have to be a sort of partial STV. It simply isn't realistic for the whole country to go STV.
Robert Jarman
Robert Jarman - 2 år siden
Winnipeg might be divided into two ridings, divided along the Red River maybe. Even with those little seat issues, they will still have the benefits of being able to use a ranked ballot and not a first past the post election, and the fact that cabinets will usually be comprised of coalitions or confidence and supply deals which usually prevents parties from renegading on their promises, and most parties do promise, on paper, to reform many issues of concern, but of course go back on them when in power. Independents also tend to do well under STV, and so perhaps an independent will win in that single member riding up in Manitoba and give a voice that isn't whipped by a party. And Manitoba itself has a legislative assembly, and is divided into municipalities which elect their own councils. They too could be elected by STV, and so they benefit from this participation as well.
Yoshibro26
Yoshibro26 - 2 år siden
3:34 here's the solution. 3 parties
Mittens FastPaw
Mittens FastPaw - 2 år siden
Well in the US we tend to only have two... ha ha...two bastard large parties that do not represent a majority of the population. =/
Don Wald
Don Wald - 3 år siden
Why STV requires multiple representatives.
K-Tech PL
K-Tech PL - År siden
If it doesn't it just turns into instant-runoff voting.
The Protean Geek
The Protean Geek - 3 år siden
So in Australia's Federal system we have each state getting 12 representatives called Senators (and each territory 2). Voted on by STV. Considering the size of the country and the states themselves 12 is alright. Though I can understand why North Queensland wants to become its own state now. They are very different to the South East of Queensland and they probably feel under represented because of the concentration of people in the South East which just out number them causing problems both at the national and state level.
We also have the lower house with those representatives being chosen one each for each division in the country. So this forms our more local representation at the Federal level. This is where we get our ruling party from (for lack of a better term). Whomever has the majority or can secure power)
not joe
not joe - 3 år siden
Cgp grey for president!!!
Isaac Liu
Isaac Liu - 3 år siden
I've always heard 7 not 5 is the optimal district magnitude to start being proportional but whatever
Robert Jarman
Robert Jarman - 2 år siden
7 works well for municipalities, and Irish municipalities do typically have 7-10 members. Some districts have 5 or 6 though. But given how diverse nation states tend to be, it can be hard to have 7 member districts. In France, with 67 million people and 577 members of Parliament, a 7 member district would have over 800 thousand people in it.
J.J. Shank
J.J. Shank - 3 år siden
"Gerrymanderable"
Rosemary Macintosh
Rosemary Macintosh - 3 år siden
CGP Grey for president. He knows how to fix both traffic jams and voting systems.
Xess
Xess - 3 år siden
I don't want no *STDs*
Ideal E
Ideal E - 3 år siden
Ha I'm trying to think of this as America. It's just simply impossible
Malachi
Malachi - 3 år siden
CGP Grey: Helping 8th grades' history projects since 2014
JonatasAdoM
JonatasAdoM - 3 år siden
What about STV with at the end one of the two being removed for lack of the majority?
Antoine Roberge
Antoine Roberge - 3 år siden
STV in Canada please
Lachlan Duggan
Lachlan Duggan - 3 år siden
Actually, smaller electorates does NOT mean less candidates. In the ACT, they have STV, with 5, 5-seats electorates, and they usually get 20-30 for each electorate.
Zhu Bajie
Zhu Bajie - 3 år siden
Vote at large! My rep doesn't represent my interest only the majority. And it will never change.
Charlie O'Dowd
Charlie O'Dowd - 4 år siden
Here in Ireland
14 out of the 40 constituencys
are 3 seaters 16 4 seaters and just 10 5 seaters this greatly benefits the two largest partys Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael who among them got 49% of votes
But 60% of seats
MrSubejio
MrSubejio - 4 år siden
Wait, so more representatives is great for being more representative of the will of the public, sure, but isn't just throwing up your hands and saying "Screw it" stacking the council for those two districts? Giving them both nine while the rest are sitting at 5 or 3 seems unbalanced.
Skyval Ream
Skyval Ream - 4 år siden
Those districts with more representatives also have a higher population. The alternative would be to have more smaller districts, but there'd till be the same overall number of representatives for the city as a whole.
Alexandra Pedersen
Alexandra Pedersen - 4 år siden
I would love for you to make a video that handels not having local reprecentatives (I might have spelled that wrong, english languige).
Drone_Better
Drone_Better - 2 år siden
Correction, then: I would love it if you made a video that handles not having local representatives. (Also, language, not languige.) I'm not being offensive, English is hard to learn, and you know more languages than me already!
Kiran Graef
Kiran Graef - 4 år siden
So why dont you make the boundarys so that there are no citys with only 3 candidates? You could easily shift it around and have every city at or closer to 5.
Aaron Bolton
Aaron Bolton - 4 år siden
2:30 Australia's version covers more than 80% of the country
Macky Cabangon
Macky Cabangon - 3 år siden
Aaron Bolton But that area is split between the provinces
Felipe Araújo
Felipe Araújo - 4 år siden
you think 40 candidates for 18 spots is too much, here in Brazil we have such a clusterfuck political system that we have more than 30 parties (all of them the same shit) and all of them have a at least one candidate and usually more than 3, so in the election here there were 17 spots in my local town assembly and more than 160 candidates. And yeah for most of the people the criteria to vote was just to remember the name.
Nuclear Fox
Nuclear Fox - 2 måneder siden
Not to mention how ridiculously under qualified some of the candidates for city councillor are. Seriously? A dude whose whole campaign is solely about the fact that he can mimic an animal? Pathetic.
edi01
edi01 - 4 år siden
Felipe Araújo oh god.
WannaComment2
WannaComment2 - 4 år siden
Is that a Wolpertinger in the top left corner?
Greg
Greg - 4 år siden
WannaComment2 Jackelope
Tanner Gregory
Tanner Gregory - 4 år siden
Anyone else notice the lines fractions don't line up completely perfectly?
MrSnepsnep
MrSnepsnep - 4 år siden
Animal city = Zootopia
Xedof Morningstar
Xedof Morningstar - År siden
Oh shiiit! Furries are comin!
Itai Eiron
Itai Eiron - 2 år siden
you mean, zootropolis? :)
Aden Cox
Aden Cox - 4 år siden
This will come in handy when I take over the world.
Alan Ivar
Alan Ivar - 28 dager siden
Approval Voting is better, Fuhrer Cox
Just some Baby Yoda in the Forest
Hurry up with the world takeover
Simone Noli
Simone Noli - År siden
Still waiting.
Ancient Hoplite
Ancient Hoplite - 2 år siden
Why would you want a democracy when you take over the world? I would be all for emperor Aden.
G1478
G1478 - 4 år siden
can i be your #.3? :D
Tm X
Tm X - 4 år siden
18 lot of candidates? Are u serious? We have atleast 200 here in Finland per 40 sets.
The Antipope
The Antipope - 4 år siden
But do you consider that a _good_ thing?
Daniel Baggs
Daniel Baggs - 4 år siden
The Australian Senate uses STV where every 3 years half the Senate goes to the polls where 6 are elected usually having around 20 candidates but this year we had a double dissolution where the whole Senate was up for grabs with 12 seats. You should have seen that white ballot paper a good 2 feet long full of parties and independents.
http://www.news.com.au/national/federal-election/overheard-at-the-polling-booths/news-story/4a1be69dd3a908f11544441c1a46d5d4
Daniel Baggs
Daniel Baggs - 8 måneder siden
@MikeyGeess I didn't make it very clear in this comment that each state elects 12 MP's and the territories 2 to the Senate. Our senate is not 12 people it's 76. The number of candidates for our constituency/electorates for the House of Reps is far more reasonable with normally around 6 candidates and using the Alternative vote system. The electorates are around 100,000 people, nowhere near the size of the states.
MikeyGeess
MikeyGeess - 8 måneder siden
I am so glad my Constituency (South West Dublin) Has a perfectly reasonable amount of Parties and Independents instead of *WHAT IN THE WORLD?!?! SERIOUSLY AUSTRALIA!*
Ηι βγε
Ηι βγε - 4 år siden
Gerrymandering???? I feel like gerrymandering can affect 5 too
Imperius
Imperius - 4 år siden
Is STV different from Alternative Vote?
icedragon769
icedragon769 - 4 år siden
Yes and no. Strictly speaking, STV is a proportional system that produces multiple winners. Alternative Vote is STV with only one winner.
Antimatter_NVF
Antimatter_NVF - 4 år siden
1:07 So, in the bottom corner of the map we kan kind of "Zootopia" here
MikeyGeess
MikeyGeess - 8 måneder siden
Without the racists towards predators!
Paul Adriaanse
Paul Adriaanse - 4 år siden
:/ but regions are very sensitive. People move around.
icedragon769
icedragon769 - 4 år siden
That's why the census exists.
Inkyminkyzizwoz
Inkyminkyzizwoz - 4 år siden
This video highlights perfectly how even this voting system isn't perfect, because constituencies in more sparsely populated parts of the country end up either covering massive areas (thus making them harder to get round) or only having one or two representatives (thus effectively defeating the object of the system in the first place!)
icedragon769
icedragon769 - 4 år siden
@Inkyminkyzizwoz Yeah, that's why he says that you need to have at least three. Furthermore, even if you only have one seat, it's better than FPTP, because STV with one winner is called IRV
Inkyminkyzizwoz
Inkyminkyzizwoz - 4 år siden
@icedragon769 The point of the system is to take into account the actual share of the votes that each candidate gets and thus make the final share of seats more proportional to that of the votes, but if there are only one or two representatives in a constituency then you can't really do that properly, meaning that it's not all that different to First Past the Post!
icedragon769
icedragon769 - 4 år siden
That's not "defeating the object of the system" that's working as intended. Those areas get exactly the same amount of representation as they got before, and they get exactly the same amount of representation as they deserve based on the proportion of the population. If that region in the corner got more than three representatives, they would be unfairly overrepresented, like flyover states in the electoral college.
Tobleh
Tobleh - 5 år siden
But, most of Canada is a fly-over region!
OHTYCH 100
OHTYCH 100 - 4 måneder siden
Fuzzy CO. We get the same representatives as the big places based on population.
Fuzzy CO.
Fuzzy CO. - 11 måneder siden
icedragon769 they actually don't get as many seats as everyone else, usually one or two
icedragon769
icedragon769 - 4 år siden
So those parts of canada get the same amount of representation as everybody else. System working as intended.
August Lundin
August Lundin - 4 år siden
60% of Sweden is, it lives 1 million people there which is 10% of the population and at the same number as the capital Stockholm :/
Totalwarking7
Totalwarking7 - 5 år siden
I still don't understand how this voting system would in the UK general election.
s casino
s casino - 4 år siden
+Totalwarking7 take a few constituencies and unite them into one, with as many MP's representing it ( the new, big constituency ) as there were initial constituencies. For example, take 5 neighbouring constituencies and unite them into a big one, with 5 MP's. What else don't you understand? :)
Albert Balbastre-Morte
Albert Balbastre-Morte - 5 år siden
So how do we represent the local interests of rural areas? Two house systems?
Albert Balbastre-Morte
Albert Balbastre-Morte - 5 år siden
@Tyrannosaurus rekt Beats nothing. In Western countries, in most rural areas they have cars aplenty. They can also vote by letter.
Albert Balbastre-Morte
Albert Balbastre-Morte - 5 år siden
+Tyrannosaurus rekt Well, if it's 20 miles I guess it's Ok.
Quinn O'Donnell
Quinn O'Donnell - 5 år siden
for a country like Canada sparce rural areas are a big problem, for us that's over half our land mass
icedragon769
icedragon769 - 4 år siden
@***** So if there's an insane party that gets 60% of the vote, they shouldn't get representation, because you say so?
icedragon769
icedragon769 - 4 år siden
In the real world, you prevent wingnut parties in MMP by having a minimum barrier for inclusion, like 5%, and STV should never give you a wingnut party unless a very large proportion of the population supports you, which means they aren't wingnut.
Quinn O'Donnell
Quinn O'Donnell - 5 år siden
I think that to apply that image of Muslims to the entire faith is incredibly misleading, especially those in Canada. to assume that someone is dangerous because of their religion is simply ignorance to say the least. I'm not saying they don't exist but I bet you could find a lot more radical Christians and Jewish people in Canada than radical Muslims. it's such a shame too, when my family first came to Canada as refugees from Ireland they were treated with the exact same hostility, that was quite a long time ago and I think it's time we move on from that. The vast majority of Muslims are incredibly friendly, law abiding and hard working citizens and to judge them based on the actions of a few misguided individuals is just xenophobic.
Quinn O'Donnell
Quinn O'Donnell - 5 år siden
+Hevian as terrifying as that is, I think you hit the right note when mentioning the Conservatives, who once they mentioned these far right leaning things lost all popularity. I think that was a great representation of Canada. hopefully I'm right and it's in the core belief structure of Canadians to be accepting of others, no matter what their political views are
Quinn O'Donnell
Quinn O'Donnell - 5 år siden
+Hevian S I think it comes form their culture, and the attitude of the people. I would very much like to think we are on the same boat with them. at least toward immigrants. our natives, well, that's another story...
Richard Sorge
Richard Sorge - 5 år siden
In turkey no-fuckin-one know who is thier representetive. Nearly all voter just go and vote for the party and dont give a shit about the representetive.
WorldNews92
WorldNews92 - 5 år siden
@CGP Grey  03:15 In fact, in Ireland, there was a phenomenon called "Tullymandering", named after the Minister For Local Government James Tully. He deliberately drew the boundaries in Dublin to all have three-member constituencies.
The hope being that his party (Labour) and his coalition partners (Fine Gael) would get one seat each, and the opposition party (Fianna Fáil) would also get one seat, so that in theory the coalition of Fine Gael and Labour could get two-thirds of the seats in Dublin.
However, this backfired spectacularly at the 1977 election, because instead of every third seat going to Labour (being the third party at the time), every third seat went to Fianna Fáil, meaning Fianna Fáil got two-thirds of the seats in Dublin, and ended up forming a majority nationwide because of it.
TrueAidooo
TrueAidooo - 7 måneder siden
Looks like he was Finna Fail
raney150
raney150 - År siden
Yup. Gerrymandering can definitely backfire. After a certain threshold of the vote, the party you gerrymandered against will win bigger than they should have given their percentage of the vote. It has to be a pretty big win though.
NeilSonOfNorbert
NeilSonOfNorbert - 5 år siden
this is why I don't think this system would work in Canada, we are the second largest country in the world and have a population under 40 million so there are lots of comparably large ridings because of the population being spread thin, so clumping five or even three of them together for STV quickly makes the idea of them being representative absurd. like Manitoba for example ware everything that isn't the city of Winnipeg becomes one riding(area 644,647km squared), or at the most extreme the northwest territories Nunavut and Yukon would all be combined to make a riding with three seats for an area 3,867,271 km squared.
XXCoder
XXCoder - 5 år siden
Wish those footnotes was captioned :(
XXCoder
XXCoder - 5 måneder siden
@Mr. Hat Yep. thanks.
Mr. Hat
Mr. Hat - 5 måneder siden
They are now!
ed4pints
ed4pints - 5 år siden
Disent this just end in a massive political coilito style thig where the differing parties wont agree....even if there second choice is close to them the are a diffrent partie and will have diffrent view. Tbis would mean that no political disition would ever be made. While first past the post isnt proportionaly reprsentative it does end in a clear government a while you may not like their choices at least thing are dicided on. For exaple as a tori i want the tories to get in but if they do not get the majority constituences and cant form a coilition to win if would rather have a la our government in power deciding on laws a policy than a multitude of UKIP Tori Green Labour LD etc where decitions may not be made as all parties have diffrent views.
CGP GREY if you have a resopnse i would like to hear it as you may be able to convince me if you can prove that decitions can be made and the government works.
Sign Ed
ed4pints
ed4pints - 5 år siden
Also please explain the difrence with stv and av. My argument against stv aplise to av aswell
Lloydie's Amble
Lloydie's Amble - 5 år siden
@CGP Grey Say there are ten parties in my constituency, and I like three of the parties enough to 'rank' them on my ballot, don't care about five of the parties, but really don't like two of them.
Is it possible to rank my parties 1-3, leave five blank, and then rank the two I don't like in last place (i.e 9 and 10)? Would this have any effect anyway, or would it be the case that as first choices always count the most, giving a negative ranking to certain parties would make no difference?
Ernie
Ernie - 4 år siden
You would need to have a 4-8 on your ballot. If your ballot has a 9, but not an 8, it will automatically be discarded as a spoiled vote.
Sam
Sam - 4 år siden
+Lloydie's Amble the solution would be just to number 1-8 and leave 9&10 off if you have no preference, or number them if you do prefer one even though you hate both. By leaving everything blank after 4 you are basically giving each party 1/6th of your vote as your 5th choice. Not ordering them does not mean that they won't get anything - as your vote will just be removed from the pool which benefits them all equally - it just means you don't care who it is if you didn't get your top 4. In your situation you do care who it is when they're not in your top 4 because you don't want it to be 9 or 10. Therefore just order down to 8. If you truly don't care for choices 5-8 then simply randomly assign them numbers; all you're doing is guaranteeing your vote will not help the candidates you don't want until the point where it wouldn't matter
Fantastycznie majestatyczny jenot
It's Poland
Lloydie's Amble
Lloydie's Amble - 5 år siden
@Fantastycznie majestatyczny jenot Which country is that? I can see benefits to voting for parties (for example, an elected politician couldn't 'switch' parties during their term - which here, in the UK, they can). But then I feel like you don't really get to choose a local representative, and it seems like a way to stop people from running independently.
Fantastycznie majestatyczny jenot
Yeah, exactly. Btw, in my country we don't have STV, we have voting for parties. It's not even democracy imo :/
Wolfeson28
Wolfeson28 - 5 år siden
This is one of the practical issues for trying to switch the U.S. over to STV. We have a number of "congressional districts" that really cannot be combined into districts with 3-5 reps (states with only 1-2 representatives). The only way we could do that would be to triple the number of Congressmen so each state has a minimum of 3 instead of a minimum of 1, but that would lead to an absurdly large House of 1305 representatives. In theory, we could switch to STV while leaving the lowest-population states as they are, but then those states would still have the same problem of disproportionate representation (although the STV voting system might still allow for those 1-2 seats to be won by candidates that appeal to broader sections of the political spectrum than is the case currently).
silverwurm
silverwurm - 3 år siden
The senate could be a much easier fix. Just up the number of senators to 5 per state instead of 2, and have them elected by statewide stv.
Wolfeson28
Wolfeson28 - 5 år siden
@A Strange Tree Certainly we could do that. That's what I meant when I was referring to still getting some benefit from STV even in states with less than 3 reps (AV is essentially STV without the multi-member districts). The one other key advantage that STV and its multi-member districts gives is reduced vulnerability to gerrymandering, but that wouldn't be much of an issue if we're using entire states as the districts for those smaller ones.
A Strange Tree
A Strange Tree - 5 år siden
@Wolfeson28 Hi, I know I'm like, REALLY late here, but you make a good point. However, it isn't necessarily true that we have to have only one voting system in place for a government that spans a continent. For example, smaller elections follow their own rules to some extent already. Also, it could be possible to combine some smaller states into one district, which would be more accurate for population representation, however I believe that would violate the constitution. *shakes fist* DAMMNNNN CONSTITUTIONNNN. At a minimum, we could eliminate first past the post voting in favor of an alternative vote (ranked), even if we can't quite implement STV
John Maddock
John Maddock - 6 år siden
I live in NSW, Australia. 2013 General election, Senate elected by STV. 6 open seats.
Number of candidates - 110
Length of Ballot paper - 100 cm
My point - It really doesn't matter how many seats you have, the election will always be complex.
John Maddock
John Maddock - 5 år siden
+Hevian S, The problem with that is that you then end up with a concentration of members from the large cities (in Australia primarily Sydney and Melbourne) and very few from rural areas (Cobar, Nyngan and the entire outback). You're right that it needs to be representative overall, but there must also be local representation, so to be fair the MMP system works very well.
John Maddock
John Maddock - 5 år siden
+Hevian S, the thing with FPTP is that it often doesn't put the most suitable candidate in the winning position: That's why I think AV is the best system when you compare it to regional representation, ease and proper representation.
Haaklong Nguyệt
Haaklong Nguyệt - 6 år siden
Just look at Suriname, there is a region that covers almost 80% of the country, before that was divided by 2 of the (now smaller) regions that are (now) in the North, sparsely populated regions look big, but they often send less representatives, look at how big Siberia is, it could rightfully be its own continent, but there are way less people than in the European part of the country.
newtube
newtube - 6 år siden
I am scottish STV is a tv Chanel
Raattis
Raattis - 6 år siden
Where I live we have dozens of candidates to pick from in the parliament elections, and I have never thought of it as a problem.
There are several methods to choose a representative, the one I like is a website that collects opinions of the candidates in several popular subjects, and gives you recommendations based on your opinions. It's easy and makes voters feel involved.
Azusa
Azusa - 6 år siden
In Japan, some regions only have two representatives running... this is bad.
TheBushman7
TheBushman7 - 6 år siden
I really like your videos on voter systems and decision theory. I was considering to examine the issue at greater depth myself, so I was wondering what kind of literature you use for sources? Any particular academic works you consider to be superior?
noyb72
noyb72 - 6 år siden
I really like watching your videos, but do you honestly think that your average voter is going to be able to rank 10 candidates for one office? If 3 offices are on the ballot then that's 30 candidates! Remember, the average American has no idea who their Federal representative is or who their Federal senators are nor can they name a single person in local office. You are asking to much of people who don't care. I just don't see this as realistic for America.
Shitsneeze turdhorse
Shitsneeze turdhorse - 6 år siden
I still don't understand how a republic nation can implement this system! Is it supposted to use this for its senate? Or congress or what?
LH Gunn
LH Gunn - 6 år siden
Grey, you sound sad. :( you okay? You're one of my fave people
EspinosaJoey
EspinosaJoey - 6 år siden
You speak like a country would actually switch in the near future.
Karl Tovseth
Karl Tovseth - 6 år siden
2:59 i find a error. Not on the facts but on the screen
Roronoa Zoro
Roronoa Zoro - 6 år siden
Why is the 3 (representatives) more susceptible to gerrymandering?
raney150
raney150 - År siden
@Gyrono Illinois' 4th (not Chicago's 4th because Chicago is a city, not a state) is made to be a minority-majority district. In this specific case it is done to give Latinos a representative they want without being outnumbered by other demographics. It isn't actually much about gerrymandering. Illinois has had some gerrymandered seats though. Interestingly, one was gerrymandered for a Republican and recently voted in a Democrat.
Gyrono
Gyrono - 5 år siden
+Roronoa Zoro The smaller a district, the easier it is to make a weirdly shaped district that just so "happens" to contain 75% of a single party's supporters. Like Chicago 4 vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/liberapedia/images/e/e8/3446898712_b03504e7f1-1.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20131221051731
davefromcamp
davefromcamp - 6 år siden
Is he adding ads now? I thought he was doing a crowd sourcing plan.  I see ads on his videos now.  Still great!
nope. ash
nope. ash - 6 år siden
So...how would the votes counting develop? I'm guessing this is for a completely sistematized voting method instead of the good ol' "draw an X on your candidate and a I on your other preferences"
Jack
Jack - 6 år siden
I think Queen Lion should just abolish democracy and rule with an iron fist.
Ari
Ari - 6 år siden
I gotta agree with SMBC's gerrymandering solution. You make a law that a district has to (on a map) contain the word Gerrymandering (probably with a minimum size). If it's actually representative it'll be big and blocky and the word will be not likely to be seen, if it's being Gerrymandered then it'll become VERY apparent.
Ari
Ari - 7 måneder siden
​@Curran Frank No problem. I would instead of using the same area just say that a certain percentage of the district needs to contain the word gerrymandering of a certain minimum width.
Curran Frank
Curran Frank - 7 måneder siden
The issue is that SMBC's proposal makes every district the same size, instead of containing the same population. This results in lower populated districts having unfair influence. Edit: I just realized this is 5 years old, sorry
Ari
Ari - 6 år siden
www.smbc-comics.com/?id=3047 is a link to the proposal.
Recycle Bin
Recycle Bin - 6 år siden
man you are messin with my hangover
saymyname
saymyname - 6 år siden
what in the world is Pitak and stv? 
Shinji Ikari
Shinji Ikari - 6 år siden
thank you
Commandelicious
Commandelicious - 6 år siden
CPG Grey in 2160p. Uhm.
RogerWilco
RogerWilco - 6 år siden
Your assumptions are wrong.
1) Any form of districting will be susceptible to gerrymandering. Your whole video is an example of this. If you use disctricting then where you draw the boundaries is always important.
2) Districting forces politicians to live where they are popular.
3) You *can* have many candidates and seats in a district. The 2012 elections in The Netherlands had 972 candidates for 150 seats. This is not an issue. At all. It has never been an issue since 1853.
4) Having a larger pool of candidates to select from is great, as it allows you to vote for the candidate you like instead of the candidate that happens to live near to you.
5) You don't have to know all 972 candidates, only the ones you might want to vote for.
In the internet age geographical location matters less and less any way.
Quintinohthree
Quintinohthree - 2 år siden
@Oli M As matter of fact, in the Netherlands you have to vote for an individual candidate. You can't just pick a party. Effectively you can do so by picking the number 1 on their list, but that still indicates a preferred candidate.
Oli M
Oli M - 6 år siden
The difference is that the Netherlands uses a party list system where you simply indicate your preferred party and the seats are given out proportionally, and as such, you don't need to know the candidates. In STV, while there are some versions where, you can, if you choose, just select a party and accept its choice of candidate rankings, the premise is that you are meant to rank individual candidates, not just pick a party.
Seth Moore
Seth Moore - 6 år siden
Considering he spends weeks and sometimes months researching these things and meeting with experts i'm going to assume his assumptions are a lot more accurate than your own. What did you spend 5 minutes looking around the internet for this stuff?
mattijs5
mattijs5 - 6 år siden
Is there a pie chart of the percentage of countries using what type of electoral system? And a list of those countries? That would be interesting!
MaJetiGizzle
MaJetiGizzle - 6 år siden
Isn't the fact that these arbitrary lines mere existence means that the entire system is open to gerrymandering? What happened to MMP? Didn't this issue already get solved in a previous video?
Roman Hauksson-Neill
Roman Hauksson-Neill - 6 år siden
Can some someone please explain to me why ranges are important? I know they are, it's just that I don't know why.
Gregg Hill
Gregg Hill - 6 år siden
Constituencies with nine members? Ouch! That's Australian Senate territory because no country that uses PR-STV for its lower house (assuming there's an upper house) uses districts with that many representatives.
pcljet
pcljet - 6 år siden
The trade-off between ease-of-following and representability seems a lot like the trade-off between resolution and rate of data flow in signal broadcasting (though I'm sure I'm not saying anything new or mind-blowing with this realization).
99thTuesday
99thTuesday - 6 år siden
There's a tradeoff in political interest when increasing number of candidates. People are daunted by a 40 candidate ballot paper and as such don't try to pay attention to the election.
Seameus
Seameus - 6 år siden
Does anybody know what for voting system there is in the Netherlands?
Tom Arden
Tom Arden - 6 år siden
I beleive the northern territory (australia) has some humongous ranges/electoral divisions for it legislative assembly, being that it has only 25 members for an area the size of France Italy and Spain combined and only 233,000 people! Apparently the legislators spend a lot of time travelling around their divisions with the electorate spread out quite a bit.
Ruben de Groot
Ruben de Groot - 6 år siden
so basically, if you have a two party system (US) gerrymandering decides the outcome, not the votes.
Marshmallow-with-a-sweater
Marshmallow-with-a-sweater - 3 måneder siden
@Texan Nationalist They've tried to put limits on it, but it's kinda hard to enforce. Austin is gerrymandered between FIVE different districts to suppress the Democrat vote, and that's the only reason we aren't a blue state.
Marshmallow-with-a-sweater
Marshmallow-with-a-sweater - 3 måneder siden
@Texan Nationalist It is for congressional districts :/ they redraw them every 10 years and If they're gerrymandered that can influence the House of Representatives for another decade, until the lines are redrawn again.
Curran Frank
Curran Frank - 4 måneder siden
@Vacatio Libertas That also goes down to the local level, which can lead to terrible outcomes as well.
Vacatio Libertas
Vacatio Libertas - 3 år siden
The House of Representatives Districts are redrawn every 10 years, Gerrymandering is a massive problem
Alistair Shaw
Alistair Shaw - 3 år siden
fugy fruit 6 imagine if it was